T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018

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Paul Blore
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018

Post by Paul Blore »

The document that Alan posted above makes it very clear.

https://www.msauk.org/assets/routeautho ... aq2015.pdf

The rules apply to ANY event that uses the public highway.

There are exceptions, but you can't pick and choose which exceptions you want to take account of. Therefore, if the total number of vehicles exceeds 12, you must seek approval.

Paul
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Roger King
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018

Post by Roger King »

That's why it matters what your event is classified as. That MSA page refers to The Motor Vehicles (Competitions and Trials) Regulations, 1969 (amended).
If your run is a touring assembly or a social run, it may not count as a competition or a trial. As I said, call the CAO and ask them.
Otherwise, if you ring round a bunch of 15 mates and agree to meet at a particular restaurant for dinner, you might need a permit! It's all a matter of degree...
Colin Newbold
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018

Post by Colin Newbold »

Further research by Peter Coombes has found this. It is a flyer from the CRC for their annual Drive-it-Day event:

Description
The event is a ‘Touring Assembly’ over a rural route within the Weald of Sussex and the South Downs National Park with a duration of approximately one and a half hours over 54 miles, in support of the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Club’s ‘Drive it Day’. An MSA COE is not required as:- “It is a social, non-competitive run for like minded participants where there is no other purpose than the camaraderie of motoring in company to a predetermined point which is not in the jurisdiction of MSA”.

This, for me, further reinforces my belief that we are able to host more than 12 cars. I propose copying their exact words and following one of my own guiding principles that 'tis oft easier to seek forgiveness than 'tis to gain permission'.

Everyone comfortable with that?

Colin
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Post by catsx11 »

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Last edited by catsx11 on Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Roger King
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018

Post by Roger King »

I wonder if we might be over-thinking this?
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peterc
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018

Post by peterc »

Bearing in mind that the CRC is a Ltd company I would have thought they would have researched this thoroughly.
In years past it was always the local company based motor clubs that had any number of cars attending whereas the RAC affiliated clubs had to comply with their rules on event size.
I seem to remember that in addition to 12 car treasure hunts with a fixed route the club also arranged timed events and for these the RAC and police were probably notified. Events of 50+ cars were held without any referral by giving batches of cars a different venue to visit first thus reducing the mass of cars at one point at any one time.
I appreciate that we all want to be responsible citizens but I still think that the practical limit set by the hotel would be an acceptable. Realistically what numbers are we looking at 16-20?
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agnoraan
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018

Post by agnoraan »

Roger King wrote:I wonder if we might be over-thinking this?
Absolutely, this is exactly what I was thinking, the 12 car rule is for competitive activities and events, under the umbrella of the MSA. I think the giveaway is in the name, "Motor Sports Association" :wink: we're just a bunch of individuals who are part of a car club, not associated to the MSA, as we dont do "MotorSports

Nige


Nige
Paul Blore
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018

Post by Paul Blore »

Guys,

You're grasping at non-existent straws.

I spoke to the MSA area coordinator at length last year on Tony Mountain's behalf for his forthcoming Roses Tour and he confirmed that the rules apply to us, or any other club for that matter. What the CRC choose to do is entirely up to them.

The MSA document is very clear "The Motor Vehicles (Competitions and Trials) Regulations 1969 (amended) require that any motoring event which utilises the Public Highway is subject to Authorisation under the legislation."

As a club, we cannot reasonably argue that our annual road trips are not "events".

We have, to date, complied with all of the exceptions to the above rule, but as soon as we go over 12 cars, we fall within the jurisdiction of the act.

I have satisfied myself that the rules apply to us and we will not, at least while I'm the Chairman, be flaunting the rules without a definitive written statement from the MSA to say that they don't apply to us. To do so could be exposing the club and in particular, me and the rest of the committee, to serious legal repercussions if something untoward happened during the event.

If Colin decides to have more than 12 cars, without getting MSA approval, he does so entirely at his own risk and outside of T289R.

Paul
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018

Post by Colin Newbold »

Ok Paul, I've written to the MSA and copied you in. Let's see how they respond. If they are really unhappy about it, you make a reasonable suggestion, which is to take it outside the Club. I guess as we receive no assistance from T289R, including sponsorship, that is a real alternative...exactly like you did with our Italian trip last year and with the upcoming Spanish trip this year.

I certainly hadn't expected to stir up a hornets nest like this, it's a bit demoralising if I'm honest :roll:

But lets see how the MSA respond. By the way, I'm curious...no one has asked the question "What is the impact of going ahead in the face of MSA opposition?" What sanctions, or penalties can they impose anyway?

I'm frankly flattered by members' interest in this tour...I'm now up to 19 expressions of interest and I really think I have to cap it at 20, otherwise it just becomes unmanageable. That number may also impact where I was hoping to take us, too.

I'll keep you all posted.

Colin
"How you see yourself is all very well, but it's how others see you that will determine the results you get as a leader!"
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agnoraan
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018

Post by agnoraan »

I sincerely can't see this affecting us, as it says "The Motor Vehicles (Competitions and Trials) Regulations 1969 (amended) require that any motoring event which utilises the Public Highway is subject to Authorisation under the legislation."

We are not doing a "competition OR a trial", and that's what the regulations were drawn up for, This is for MSA sanctioned bodies to comply with, not for people merely driving on the highway in road legal cars, just as everyone else does. There are "cruises" all over the country and no-one, as far as I'm aware, has ever implemented a 12 car ruling whilst driving on the roads. At Chelsea on the last Saturday of the month, there are hundreds of cars cruisng around the Battersea park area and then around the embankment and this has been going on since the late '70's, and it's the same with the "tunnel runs" that people go on, but the MSA have never intervened.You have convoys of cars trying to get into the likes of the Silverstone Classic, just as I encountered the same at Cranleigh last year, but no one from the MSA have ever said you can't have more than twelve cars on a section of road at any one time. The queues of classic cars to get in the year before last were miles long, all I could see was classics as far as the eye could see. As we're not a part of the MSA I can't see how they're supposed to police it for non members as there's no enforcement available to them.

For example, if you're a memebr of the MSA, you're not allowed to run your race numbers on the public highway, you either have to remove them or run a black tape over them or face penalties for their members. It's a ruling that they've made, but there's no way that they can enforce this on Joe Public, and they don't try to enforce it, as it isn't a law laid down by parliament.

If it's felt that it could impact the club, then take it might be best to take it outside of the club, and have as many "friends" as you like turn up and go for a drive with like minded people.

I fully understand that the club should not be put in a position where there could be repurcussions, and will happily wait for the replies to the correspondence.

Nige
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